DISQUS

mike · 11 months ago

That's not an option for me..I'm speaking directly to "Predatory" accounting procedures that would seem to me to be against the Federal Banking Laws!!..With the "On-line Banking" access that we all have now ...you can monitor the "Dates" that Debits and credits are made and clear.....I have noticed that not only will Banks "Hold" the Debits at certain times of the month (hoping for a regular monthly payment debit) but will actually "Re-calculate" the day the debit clears up to a week or more after the transaction is complete...This allows for "Creative Bookkeeping" ..IE: $200.00 balance..in the next 3 days, 5 debits totaling $195.00 "Clear" the account..6 days later a $300.00 debit clears instantly (by some miracle) on the same day a $400.00 Deposit is made (either direct or ACH..with the ACH clearing at 12:00 that evening as ACH transactions do)..The Bank will re-calculate the previously completed transactions and pay the $400.00 debit first!!!..then bounce all the other debits (already cleared and change the clear date) and charge banking fee's accordingly.and then figure the Deposit effectively "Ripping You Off"!!!...I've gone round and round with my bank about this...Without a 3-4 times daily printout of your transactions off your on-line banking site (showing what cleared when) ..the consumer has NO leg to stand on as the bank computer has been changed..(seems to be some kind of "Hunting" Software the Bank uses).Even with your printouts your looking at several hours of fighting with the Bank Mgr. who has a list of "Pat" excuses that rival a side show pitchman!..This doesn't even take into account the aforementioned Deposit (ACH) that should be an immediate credit off a 2-3 day ACH "Memo Post"..and figured before the $400.00 Debit!...Banks are now claiming that ACH deposits are figured at 12:00 that banking day..while any debit made that day is figured first...This after they have just "Held" Debits for several days just to "Create" this situation...There is no way to Police this until someone gets a really good attorney to really take a look at this practice and do a "Class Action" Lawsuit representing consumers against the Banks and force the Federal Reserve to stop them from this illegal conduct!!..This is a Trillion dollar a year plus Rip-Off that no one has done anything about!!!
I challenge the members of this board and any Att's out there to start a Web-Site to bring all these potential clients together and everyone to monitor and get printouts of their transactions several times a day to create the body of evidence needed to bring these criminals to there knees!!! The first thing to look at is a local store that you use often...Note that on certain times of the month the normal "Hold" on your money from a Debit Card purchase will clear that day...then later (when the power, rent, mortgage,etc.) when the bills come in there is a 3-5 day Hold on the transaction from the same store..allowing the Bank to figure the big debit first and creating yet another way of causing a multiple "Overdraft" on your account...This is all kind of tricky to grasp until you get good at reading your personal On-line account printouts..and watch the dates change on debits!!!...This is only possible with the use of "Hunting" seek and destroy software..very similar to a "Bot" virus..or "Phishing" program..It is the way of nature for the Banks to apply the technology that years of accomplished On-line Rip-off Artists have developed and used to steal from consumers..and once the existence of this "Mal-ware" has been documented and revealed to the public, there will be a flood of these lawsuits!!!...Watch Your Money!!.. Because The Banks Are!!!

juggler314 · 1 year ago

I've found WaMu to be pretty good about this. Even if i go to the ATM and make a deposit late at night it will be counted as actual cash available that day. A few times I've found something amiss in my records and had to do this and never have I had an overdraft fee because of it.

The account I use is a Platinum account so this info may not apply to every type of account (I don't pay fees for a lot of things that a "free" account would). I don't pay anything extra for my Platinum level account since my mortgage is considered part of my balance for the minimum calculation (yay).

Kathi D · 1 year ago

Here is one technique that wasn't mentioned. I have had this happen on checking and credit card accounts. You have a recurring draft on your account to pay for a service or bill. The bank sometimes charges the fee at the beginning of the month and then again towards the end of the month. When called, the explanation is that the bank posts the fee when the service requests payment and that the bank has no control over that. In the meantime, your account is overdrawn. Is this practice legal?

Greg · 1 year ago

Maintain a cushion of $1,000 in your account. Should get fees waived and prevent overdrafts (which usually works out to be 10%+ roi). The cushion servers as your immediate backup cash.

smouw · 8 months ago

Who the *** has an extra $1000????? I agree, the banks should all be standardized and post everything the same manner. If you deposit money to cover your checks for that business day, why should you incurr an over draft fee. Sometimes things happen outside of your control and if you transfer or deposit money to cover them, the bank has not lost money or taken a risk. The bank does not "pay" the items that are presented that day, they hold everything, so if by the end of business you've covered your transactions, why do they need to charge a fee?

Kevin @ The Money Hawk · 1 year ago

Of course they do this. The problem is that 99% of them do it. Banks, like everyone else, exist to make money. The only difference is that most companies make money legitimately while banks steal it from you with policies and behavior beyond your control.

The best way to combat this would be to leave these banks. However, this will never happen because the majority of society is too blind and ignorant to make a difference. One intelligent person leaves and five more sheep join.

I've given up on this issue. The only thing I've found worth my while on this issue is to make sure I never get close to overdrafting the account and make sure I behave myself, lest they take more of my money. Basically, I work around their policies so they never notice me. If they don't notice me, they can't take anything from me.

Rick · 1 year ago

Do Credit Unions do the same as banks? I haven't really paid attention. I have noticed that even though I am paid on a Friday my credit union posts the money on Thursday evening and it is available to me.

Tessa · 1 year ago

I use to be a supervisor for Wells Fargo Bank and I think who ever you talked to didn't know what they were talking about.
Here is how it really works at Wells Fargo:
There are two types of transactions, teller and ATM. If you make a cash deposit with a teller, the cash will be credited into your account as soon as the teller hands you the receipt. If you make a check deposit with a teller an immediate $100 dollars is credited to your account and the rest of the check will be credited the next business day. If you make a cash or check deposit with the ATM an immediate $100 dollars is credited to your account and the rest will be credited the next business day. The difference is because the teller can tell the system that it is cash deposit where the ATM can't make that distinction and everything gets processed like a check deposit.
So, if you make a cash deposit with a teller it is in the account and you can walk right out the door and pull it out of the ATM with out incurring any type of fee.

Secondly, Wells Fargo takes any credits before debits. So if you make a check deposit and on the same day make a debit card purchase Wells Fargo will credit your account the deposit before they debit out for the purchase.

The only snag is that the end of a banking business day is 4:00pm. This means for a check deposit to be in your account in the morning it must be in the ATM or at the tell by 4pm. I've seen SO many situations where a customer will make a 5:00pm deposit and assume because the made it in before the bank closed the money will be in the account by the morning, it won't!
So, if you make a check deposit after 4pm and then go pull it right out, you will get charged the overdraft fee because you made the deposit after the business day is over.

All the differences and time cut off do make it really hard on people and can be confusing at first so I agree with other posters that it's a good idea to always have some kind of buffer just in case you miss a cut off or the bank places an extended hold on your check. I do hope that this cleared up any skepticism with Wells Fargo because while I worked there I always saw that the bank tried hard to be fair and not hit good customers with outrageous policy or fees!

James · 1 year ago

@Tessa

I would actually like to challenge you on the credit before debit with Wells Fargo. I have banked with Wells Fargo for about 10 years now. When I switched auto insurance companies, the amount is auto drawn from my account on the 15th which is the same for my paycheck. Well for a while the amount of my auto insurance was more than i had available in my checking account and it would overdraft from my savings account. This really annoyed me because if i looked online it would be in this order:

Over Draft fee -$xx.xx
Over Draft from Savings: +$xxx.xx
Paycheck : +$xxxx.xx
Auto Insurance : -$xxx.xx

So, all of these transactions would show up on the 15th and clearly it was processing the debit before the credit. I had to call customer service and they refunded the fee each time this happened, but I had to move the money back to my savings account.

I also have multiple accounts at Chase and I can say that even if your account is showing negative, you can run to the ATM and deposit enough cash to cover the overage and you will be okay. These accounts are used for anything special, just to take advantage of account bonuses.

Steve · 1 year ago

The whole problem boils down to this: when banks started extending their hours, they didn't extend their processing and cutoff times.

Customers ASSUME that because they're making a deposit on a calendar day that it's effective that day. If they would actually read their disclosures or ask the teller or call up like you did, there wouldn't be any problems.

From now on, tell yourself that banks still close at 3pm. If you need it there today, you need it there by 3.

Dan · 1 year ago

I was impressed with Presidential Bank's handling of this.

Their interest-bearing checking account has a minimum balance of $1000. If you fall below that amount in a given month, you are assessed a $5 fee.

I checked my balance online one day when I knew I was cutting it close to the $1000 balance, and noticed that due to the order of transactions my balance had fallen slightly below $1000 before a deposit brought it back above.

I called Presidential, explained that because my end of the day balance would be above $1000 I didn't want to be charged the fee, and they told me they would not charge me the fee.

Of course, it was only a $5 fee in my case, but I'd guess a similar phone call might produce the same result for a customer concerned about an overdraft rather than a balance limit.

Brandy · 1 year ago

I have had a bit of a different experience with WaMu. I have a Treasury direct deposit that hits on the first day of the month, or the previous day if the first is a weekend or holiday.

I have documented proof that they process my withdrawals BEFORE the direct deposit.

The good side? They only charge one overdraft fee per day!

Also, wouldn't it be GREAT if the banks would re-set your overdraft fee after say, 5 years without an overdraft? THAT would be customer rewards!

Brandy · 1 year ago

Additionally, I had a very large check drawn on the US Treasury that I deposited through ATM. WaMu held the funds for several days "to make sure the check was good"!!!!

Umm, please to let me know if the Treasury is not good for a 6 digit check, mkay?

Jim · 1 year ago

Don't open an account with Colonial Bank in Alabama, they'll really stick it to you with as many debits as possible before posting a deposit that actually came in before them on the same day!

If I could do without a bank I would, but they have monopolized stealing money from those who can afford it least!!

Mike · 1 year ago

I've got one for you that "Top's" all of this..ACH Deposits..Regions Bank ...Even with the questionable practice of what "99 percent of banks do"..in regards to the ATM and deposit credits..Regions Holds ACH deposits for 3-4 days before posting them!!!..I have gone round-n-round about it with them (which they deny!)..and caught them last night..Deposit showed up before 12:00 PM as "pending" with a projected balance..should have processed at 12:01AM and be available..Today it's NOT EVEN THERE!..and they deny ever having it....I can't believe my on-line checking report is more accurate then their banking computers..This is happening all over..They use Billions of dollars "Interest Free" every day and there isn't one agency that will take responsibility to look into it..America is getting Ripped Off again on a unfathomable level!!..I suspect it is collusion between the Fed's who handle ACH Transfers and the Banks and they sure don't want ANYONE asking about it..

Cyndi · 11 months ago

For those of us who live paycheck to paycheck. Having a cushion in the bank account is not an option. We have our bank account at BB&T (Branch Banking and Trust Co.) Even if our bank account has a positive balance, BB&T posts all debits first. They post our paychecks last- overdrawing our account, every week! (Our employer does not offer direct deposit.) We can not keep ahead of the bank overdraft charges! We were deeply affected by the mortgage meltdown and are now kicked by the bank when down. We have pleaded with them to forgive some of the service charges, but to no avail. I would love to find a bank that would post credits first.

Greg · 11 months ago

I went for two years without a band account. Purchasing money orders from the grocery store was less than the banking fees. While maybe not the most desirable, it did save me money.

Rick · 11 months ago

On two separate occasions our bank has called us and said that our checking account balance has gone negative. They said if we made a deposit that day they wouldn't charge a fee. The amounts were small and an oversight on our part. We don't maintain much on deposit with the bank so presumably they treat other customers similarly.

Sharon · 11 months ago

I bank with Southwest Airlines Credit Union. They are awesome. I don't work for SWACU but because my immediate family member does, I am able to bank with them. When I have a check direct deposited, they always post it at Midnight sharp the day it is expected...if that day falls on a weekend, they post it Friday night at midnight and the funds are immediately available. They also post deposits immediately and then debits follow in the order in which they were received. Southwest Airlines Credit Union is the best bank I have ever dealt with. I would highly recommend them.

I have a friend that was recently affected by the mortgage melt down. Her mortgage is with Wells Fargo and she banks with BOA. Both are crooks and will steal you blind. I have recently been helping my friend with her budget due to mortgage issues and the fact that I handle the finances for the company that I work for. I found and have documentation to support both practices. My friend was behind on her mortgage, what I found was: Wells Fargo repeatedly posted her mortgage payments not in accordance to the "Terms" stiplated in her mortgage agreement. They were outright violating that agreement. As a result, they showed her 3 months past due and they began foreclosure proceedings. She tried to get a modification to her mortgage but after 3 months nothing happened and her home was scheduled to be sold in an auction in September. We contacted numerous attorneys which required outrageous retainers and she essentially could not afford. Wells Fargo continuously posted multiple mortgage payments any way they wanted even though the mortgage terms specifically specify how these funds are to be applied, Well Fargo disregarded those TERMS stipulated in the mortgage documents. It was not until we filed a complaint with the Comptroller of the Currency which oversees banks with NA in their name that anything started to happen. Within one week of her home being sold, Wells Fargo approved her for a loan modification. The only problem, in order to save her home, she had to agree to accept all the extra fees that Wells Fargo had added from legal fees to you name it. She was essentially forced to accept these terms.

I have filed numerous complaints with various officials, agencies, wrote Senators, Congressmen in our area, etc.

Since all of this happened, I have been helping my friend manage her money. She banks with BOA. I print out her banking activity 2-3 times a day. The practice that Bank of America participates in is similar to those discussed on this website. Just to give you an example, my friend stopped by on Wednesday, her roommate just paid her the rent money and she had CASH. She asked if I would be able to stop by her bank to make the deposit because she is working 7/10's. On 1/8/09, I made her CASH deposit to her account. The receipt shows DEPOSIT 1/8/09 however, BOA shows 3-4 different scenario's depending on what time of day you check....I printed all of this. The CASH deposit receipt shows 1/8/09 as the date of deposit, online they show "deposit made after cut off time" and pending. On 1/9/09, the deposit was still "pending". I checked online 3-4 times and printed everything out on 1/09/09, the CASH deposit did not show up and was not posted to her account until sometime after 5:30am the morning of 1/10/09.

I think the American public should protest these practices to our elected officals. If we don't, nothing will change and who is looking out for us and protects the consumer these days? If you don't complain then nothing will ever change.

Paul · 4 months ago

In regards to that BofA cash deposit, it appears from the context of that post that you made a cash deposit to your friend's account after the cutoff time for BofA. Cutoff time means the bank is effectively closed but is still staying open for convenience of customers. Now, although that cash deposit is marked as pending for next day, that is really irrelevant as cash deposits are always available immediately regardless if it's showing as pending or not. You'll see proof of this in what's reflected as your "available balance". I don't see anything illegal or shady in that scenario you presented.

mike · 11 months ago

That's exactly what I'm talking about!!!!..There is a "Mal-Ware" program that "most" Banks are using that searches for and "Tags" accounts that are vulnerable!!!..Most all the "Lowly Bank Mgr's" are not aware of it and don't understand what's happening. They are give the "Pitch" to sell and their job depends on it!!!...As a Country we have to rise up and "Protest" and "SUE"...That's the only way this will stop and keep it from getting worse!!!..I just had $600.00 in charges and fee's reversed because I raised heck!..and I was right!!!..This is "SOP" for Banks now and will get worse!!..Rise up and Fight!!..We work to hard for our money to have it stolen by the people who charge us to watch it!!!..Read my previous posts and really try what I suggest...You will see what I am talking about!...It's "Mal-Ware" being used against us by the same institutions that our Government is supposed to be supervising!!!...Where the Heck are the Lawyers when you need them???...Remember these days 2+2 +=10

Dan · 11 months ago

There has been a Class Action against Bank of America for this.

If you had a Bank of America account between 12/6/2000 and 12/31/2007 and had a check with overdraft fees, you are entitled to a $78 refund.

http://clossonsettlement.com/PDFs/ClaimForm.pdf

Mary · 11 months ago

Mike-You are so right and explained it perfectly!!! I am so mad!! This very thing happened to me this week, and now the extra days I worked last week are eaten up in fees thanks to PNC Bank's predatory practice. I did check my balance online last week, as I do each day at least 1-3 times per day. Some things showed that they were cleared, then magically, voila!!! they rearranged the transactions. Transactions that were done over the weekend weren't sent through until Wednesday, while others were sent through Tuesday that were done Monday. All electronic transactions. Furthermore, I deposited a check on Wed. as we don't have direct deposit at our employer, and they bounced another transaction even though my account had funds because according to the bank, "The funds weren't truely available" until the next day. I couldn't deposit the funds "as cash" like usual, because, of course I was overdrawn. Kinda like a "catch 22" With whom do we speak or write to, state legislators or congressmen to get this practice changed?? I feel that the transactions should come out in chronological order.

Paul · 4 months ago

I'm not siding with or against posters on this site. I just want to correct some misconceptions. Electronic debits are posted in the order that you spent them. Banks don't have Malware programs that rearrange whole weeks worth of transactions. If you use your debit card over the weekend at Starbucks and then slide it at Safeway on Monday, the weekend debit won't necessarily post before the Safeway debit. At Safeway, they're point-of-sale machine allows you to process the debit as ATM allowing you to enter a PIN. That transaction posts that day whereas using your same debit card at Starbucks, it's run like a credit card and there's a delay in the posting depending on how long Starbucks sits on the transactions before they batch out their credit transactions and send it to the bank. So the point is, the order that you spend isn't the order that it'll post. It's not magically getting rearanged, it's just retailer sitting on their batches.

Flexo · 3 months ago

That's only a partial explanation. On the day the bank receives the transaction from the retailer, they are often free to post the transactions *received the same day* in the order they prefer.

mike · 11 months ago

I told you!!!!..all you have to do is keep printing this "Garbage" 2-3 times a day and keep all your records and we can build the biggest "Class Action Suit" this country has EVER!! seen...I'm talking about the "Blatantly Illegal" whole sale "Ripp-Off" of all times being done with "Collusion" between supposedly competing Banks!...(Trillions of Dollars) ..With something this "Wide Spread" you can't tell me the "Bank Examiners" don't know about it!!!..so that brings the 'Suit" to the "Federal" level...That will get good Att's involved!!!..but everyone has to "Print-Out" the pages to "Prove It"!!!..We need a Bumper Sticker or "T" shirts or something!!!...TV coverage would help...It will get "Rolling" on it's own if just a few people start to "Push" and "Record" everything!..Just another "Tidbit" to ponder....Your "Deposit" of your paycheck gets a "Memo Post" as soon as the teller stamps it...That money is instantly available to the Bank for it's own use..and they both report it and invest it instantly!!!...without paying you dividends for your "Loan" to them..(while you wait for it to clear)...Then if there is a problem..they charge you again for some one writing you a "Bad Check"...They gain and you lose..your responsible for any fee's incurred and the only way you can collect those fee's is to sue in Small Claims Court"...This wouldn't bother me except for them getting to make money off me without paying "Interest"..and again "Shuffling" the Debits and Credits to cause more "Predatory Banking"...The Suit referred to (in previous post).. against BOA was Settled out of court so there was no conviction...There have been some very "serious" Suits about similar and "Overlapping" topics that have all gone in the customers favor and established some pretty "Harsh" penalties for these "Practices"...but no one has jumped up and done anything in the last 10-15 years of any consequence...a lot has changed (computers) and has allowed for this Larcenous behavior on the part of the "Fed. Banks"..Now we have to Police the Government ourselves as the Tax Paid employees of the US (That you and me and our Tax Dollars pay for)..Don't even make an "Attempt" to enforce or follow existing Laws!!!..This could be a "Juicy Suit" ...Like I said .."Where's that hungry Lawyer???"...I know that my cut will be some stupid little pittance but what I'll save in Bank fee's, Time, Hassle, and Money will be just fine!!..This Bank Stuff is killing me!!!..every week!!!...I'm tired of making them give me my own money back!!!...$2,600.00 this year!!!...plus the phone calls, printer paper, time, BS, Gas, Time off work, ETC.I got a hold of the Fed. in charge of all the Bank Examiners..(nice guy)..He's lost in an obscure office in Wash. and personally responded to me by phone at 6:30 at night!!!..from his car!! on the way home!!..has a secretary and that's it!!...One guy!!..He's so busy with all the "Bush Money" being given out to all the "Party Animals" that are claiming their share..that watching Banks is very low on his "Plate"!!!..It's in our "Laps" whither we want it or not!!..On a personal level all you can do is what I suggested and they HAVE to give you your money back...(don't jump intermediately..when you see it..wait for a week or so to get all the "Print-out's" in order and things calm down on your account..Early complaints can cause you even more trouble as they realize you are watching..(Things get real strange then..2+2=10..every time..)..Anybody make "T" Shirts???..."Bust the Banks" or something...

ducanh · 10 months ago

I was buying 2 game cards from my country with my debit card. Those card have been cancel but PNC put my $12.85 in "Pending Withdrawals" for 3 days and I haven't seen any side they give my money back. What should I do? I send PNC an e-mail to day but I think it won't be answer or if they answer, they could say anythink they want. I think I need to withdrawal almost all of my money and transfer them to another bank that have better service.

Flexo · 10 months ago

ducanh: That's a debit preauthorization that you see in your account, and the bank might keep them there for five days or more, but usually less. They'll just disappear if the debit was canceled by the place you bought the game cards. If the purchase wasn't canceled, the preauth will become a debit and if you want your money, you'll have to get the game card seller to credit your refund.

mike · 8 months ago

"debit preauthorization" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!another fancy word for your money is gone and we are using it and making money off it, but, but ,but you better not screw up or we will charge you an overdraft fee because we want to leave it out there like a Buzzard!!!...THIRTY FIVE DOLLAR

mike · 8 months ago

and another thing..“debit preauthorization”..is a "memo post"..which the bank uses to make investments..and hold your deposits..they "memo post" ..bank uses money until they decide to put it on your acct.....during this time your money can't be accessed..but they are using it..and if you try THIRTY FIVE DOLLLARS

dcexpat · 7 months ago

This is the policy at PNC. I recently made a $2000.00 deposit, and it posted as cleared when I checked my balance online, so I scheduled some payments. Several days later, I got a letter saying that the deposit would take longer to clear, so I was charged an overdraft fee on each payment I had scheduled. When I asked the bank about it, they essentially said that even though the funds had posted online, I should have known that the check had not cleared, because it hadn't been 48 hours yet. In the past, checks that hadn't cleared were posted under "pending transactions" until the funds became fully available. The bank told me they stopped doing this, now they post the full amount, even if they haven't cleared it yet, then charge you an overdraft fee if you try to draw on it. This is obvioucly a way for them to collect higher fees.

JAN · 2 months ago

I bank with Compass and they have explained to me that they subtract all the debits first. Then they tack on any OD fees if able to, after that they credit you're account with whatever deposits you have. I was not aware of this untill about 6 mo after i had the account. The bank rep that set up my account never mentioned this practice to me. I would like a honest bank but they seem to be in short supply. Does any one know of a good one in DFW TX?

Gary · 2 months ago

This is spot on information. Currently, there is a class action suit against a long list of banks around the country that are using software that deliberately posts debits ahead of credits to create as many overdrafts as possible. This is outright theft, folks, and is illegal as hell. But, it's not at all surprising once you realize that the entire banking industry is a fraud and criminal enterprise, in the first place. Read books like G. Edward Griffin's "The Creature from Jeykll Island" to learn more about what the international banking industry has been doing for over a century.