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You make some good points but I can't let you off the hook that easily.
Why is the focus on the man making the money and having the plan? Is this 1958 or 2008? Yes, it's important find someone on the same wavelength financially but if the woman wants to be in control of her financial destiny then shouldn't she take the reins? Stop relying on the man, there's not much he can do that you can't go out and do yourself!
I suppose this is a response to the whole man-child phenomenon we are seeing in recent decades. You certainly don't want to be stuck married to one of *these* guys. But the thing to keep in mind is that people change, they grow up. That doesn't mean you should waste time waiting around for a man-child to grow up, but it also means he may get his act together eventually and turn into marriage material according to your criteria.
Finally, I'd like to point out that being married to a type-A guy (you know what the A stands for, right?) who is "go-go-go career-career-career" is not always what it's cracked up to be. My wife knows tons of SAHMs who are raising their kids (essentially) alone, driving luxury SUVs, sucking down lattes. It's a great life except for the part where their husbands spend more time at work and on the golf course than they do with the kids...but that's what you sign up for when you marry a guy whose got a plan and is "motivated by money."
As I asked before, why put your destiny in the hands of some guy? Make your own destiny and find a sweet, caring guy to be a SAHD to your children. This world needs more SAHDs!
Plus, a healthy marriage recognizes the gifts and weaknesses of each person. It may just be the case that the husband isn't particularly gifted with thinking ahead with money, but he might have compensating traits.
In the end, it doesn't matter--because it's quite hard to change who you'll fall in love with anyways ;)
Communication is the bedrock, and finances are built upon it.
Take control of finances together, and you'll (both) be much happier in the long run.
I would have run in the opposite direction if my hubby had tons of debt and poor financial management skills. i wanted (and got) a man who shared my same values and financial values is one of those.
If you can't bear your entire financial life to someone, and have them do the same, you should not be marrying them. Finances tie into so many other important parts of a marriage.
Of course, people will say that I have no idea what I'm talking about, being young and un-married - but I like to think I'm observant about the marriages of the people around me and I can definitely tell you that money is the absolute number 1 source of marital tension that I see.
First off, to the other readers, I don't think she ever so much as implied that money is the most important factor when dating. Maybe you can't choose who you fall in love with, but love alone isn't enough -- I've known lots of women in bad relationships who love their partners, but that doesn't mean that they should stay with them.
Nor did she say that women should worry about the guy's money skills but neglect their own. There is plenty of info on that topic elsewhere.
Nor do I take her article to say that you should only look for rich guys. There are many rich people who have awful money skills and blow it all, while there are plenty of poor people who do remarkably well with what they have.
Nor is someone type-A just because they work hard and take care of their money.
So, yes, I definitely agree that you should consider how a man treats money. Is it the most important factor? No -- but it can be very telling when it comes to other aspects of his personality. Plus, if a guy sucks at handling money now, he's not going to change overnight (and maybe not at all).
However, I can predict how hollow that existence will be 15,20,30 years down the line. I aspire to be wealthy and I now that my wife likes that aspect of my personality, but it is a small part of who I am. If that was what she was worried about first, and the rest later, I don't know if I'd be happy with that.
There is such a thing as two people who are opposites balancing each other out. If I were single I'd save 40% of my income, but because I have her in my life she brings be back to reality and we strive (but rarely hit) the 20% savings mark.
I guess my point is that all types of relationships can work, and wealth can be created even when one spouse is not actively involved in the process. As others have commented, communication is important, and I would add that so is balance in the relationship and in the individuals involved.
I don't understand what this has to do with DINKS... Maybe I missed something, but I didn't read anything in this post that said that the goal was DINKS, just as she didn't say that women should be SAHMs or guys should be SAHDs. The point, as I read it, was that women should at least consider a guy's money skills as part of the package.
While people can certainly balance each other out, there are limits. In the end, if they don't have complementary goals, there's going to be trouble. And if either of them isn't wise about their money, there's going to be trouble. I've seen it happen time and time again: one person is a big spender, the other watches in horror as their hard-earned money disappears into debt. They don't balance each other -- one sucks the other dry! And yes, in some cases, one person is far too miserly and makes the other person miserable. That doesn't work any better.
Bottom line, I don't think anyone should get married before at least knowing where their partner stands when it comes to finances, and considering how that will work with their own ideas about money. (Not that it can't work out if they disagree, but compromises may be necessary.)
Anyhoo, just to address concerns about it seeming as though I am promoting ONLY thinking about men in terms of their wallet... that isnt the case and I made that clear, hopefully in the first few sentences. I really wanted to drive home the importance of selecting a mate with a healthy attitude towards personal finance.
@ Toby--I think there are a few directions we could go with but that's my main point. Not to promote women being in their marriage alone as that is another story, not quite the focus I had here in the post. Still, a good point.
@ Ryan, I agree.
@ Llama Money--that excerpt was simply an analogy not to be taken literally. However, there are salient points to be taken from that excerpt which I certainly agree with it only because at times it is like a partnership that you have to keep fostering to make sure that it works out. that's my take on it. I didn't mean it to be literal.
@ Meg- THANK YOU!!!! LOL!! This is exactly the point I was trying to convey. I in no way wanted to imply anything else than what was written here. This has nothing to do with DINKS-SAHMs or SAHDs. Just that a woman should be looking into HOW a man manages money and not HOW MUCH money he has... Adfect, I hope that clears it up for you.
What I also find interesting.... of those that have posted that I can tell from the names and writing style...that are women, they agree with the basic point and sentiment of the post. The men who have responded seem to disagree and quite frankly resist the idea of a woman looking at them in this manner. Moreso I guess what it can infer.... a woman possibly coming into the relationship with some financial savvy about her. Is that an issue? Is is threatening?. Just something to think about.
I married a man with a lot of student loans. I knew, however, that other than his loans, car payment and small credit card debt (under $900) he didn't have bad spending habits. His financial character was good.
He says that it's great I'm interested in financial stuff, so I have financial reigns. I just communicate with him about what I'm doing and why and I try to teach him important things as I learn them.
Financially speaking I don't know if marrying him was a wise choice (though if we divorce, I'm still debt-free). But in all other ways, he's an excellent and supportive partner, a great conversationalist, loving, etc. So I think it was definitely the right choice.
I wouldn't marry a guy who spends wildly and beyond his means just as I wouldn't marry a guy who drinks a lot. But I don't think we both have to be on the same financially savvy page as long as we communicate.
I also suspected that there might be a gender split when it comes to attitudes... though it's hard to tell.
Obviously, I'm a gal. For those that don't know me and my blog, I'm a young married woman, married now for over 6 years. Our finances are far from perfect, but I look around and realize how fortunate I am to be married to a guy who does have a healthy and admirable work ethic, who does has similar financial goals, who understands the basics, and who isn't a complete spendthrift. I would hate to be married to a guy that put our future in jeopardy with poor financial planning or obsessive overspending.
That said, we've been working more on communication lately so that we can work together to improve our financial situation. No matter who plugs in the numbers, it takes both people working together to make things work.
Again, I highly recommend talking about finances in depth before getting married.
Communication is a basic aspect of all good marriages and partnership so that wasnt even in question. Moving past all the "givens" and "must haves" in a relationship...where are you financially? How savvy is your partner? Knowledge is just as good as communication. This was never meant to make anyone feel "less than" if their mates don't have all the characteristics noted in the post but its definitely something to think about.
My husband has made great progress in his attitude towards personal finance but he also taught me a few things along the lines of real estate investing and career. He came into our relationship with large profits after selling his home before the bubble burst. While he was savvy enough around real estate, he didnt know what to do with it. That's where our personal finance journey started. So yes communication is really key to making sure that this aspect of your relationship works.
"When smart women meet a partner, they aren't wooed by good looks and the smooth talk, after all those come a dime a dozen. These women are looking at how their potential partners spend money."
That sort of points you back in the other direction - money is more important than chemistry and physical attraction. Money matters, but being attracted to, and "clicking with" someone is more important.
Curiosity makes me ask, why, in today's world, is it still expected that the man be the primary breadwinner / financial expert? Do you suggest that men also only seek women who are financially secure and have their financial future all planned out?
Not to sound sexist ( though this probably will sound that way ), but if men only married women who were financially secure and great with money, there would be a whole lot more single people in the world today.
Let me preface this by stating that I am not suggesting that women marry solely for money, I am after all a believer in love and commitment as a solid foundation for marriage.
Please take the article at face value. I am already assuming that women are already financially stable and savvy and that they seek partners who are like them in this respect. Nothing more nothing less. Please don't read more into the article than already stated. I think this is where one can get a bit carried away in assumptions.
No where in the article did I state that the man should or would be the breadwinner. I stated that he should have his financial house in order. I suggest nothing more or less than what was stated.
Regarding your last sentence, a lot of us would be better off and would be able to avoid divorce if we considered this aspect of our lives before jumping the broom. Man or woman, your financial house should be in order.
"how their potential partners spend money"
How meaning, are they saving....spending more than they earn...saving for retirement etc etc
Good looks and the smooth talk are superficial and come a dime a dozen. "Clicking" with someone or chemistry is a given.
You're definitely reading more into the article than what I stated :-)
Chemistry, lust, physical attraction, etc. are not at all hard to find and definitely shouldn't be the basis for marriage. Marrying a man (or vice versa if you're a man) who spends frivolously would make it extremely difficult achieve financial security.
Marrying a poor money manager then hoping that "love" will make it all fall into place is a bit Cinderella-ish.
I don't think both people have to be equally financially savvy but there has to be good financial character and an openness/willingness to learn (or follow).
Like Ginger said, good looks and smooth talk is definitely a dime a dozen. I've met more than a few of them that turned out to be abusive to their girlfriends/wives. Bottom line, chemistry isn't everything, either -- especially when you're talking about a lifelong commitment. And while being bad with money might not sound like "abuse", at some levels it can be -- and it can also be an early sign of an abuser.
Of course, there are nice looking guys that are nice and have a financial plan. I'm married to one.
But if I were looking for a partner again...
All else being equal, I'd prefer the guy that knew that credit cards weren't "free money" and didn't spend every penny he brought in. And in fact, a guy like that would easily beat out better looking guys that don't think about their financial future at all.
As for your earlier comment, I do think that society (at least in the U.S.) does expect the guy to be the primary breadwinner and handle the finances. That does seem unfair considering that women can do the job just as well -- and often do. Whatever society expects, though, I think women should make sure that they educate themselves about finances.
Personally, a great mind and a great heart are bigger turn-ons for me -- and they tend to last a lot longer than good looks.
I second that! I'm 35, never married. No debts, except for mortgage. Make a pretty good salary that most two earner families live on. Maxed out on 401k. Etc...
For all the women I meet that are looking for "financially secure" men, I can count MAYBE two of them that actually had their own financial house in order. Go figure.
So I'm being "smart". And staying single.
I'm working hard, saving, and building a good income--and I am certainly not going to marry a man who doesn't do the same but happens to have an affinity for Lexus and Niemen's. And I wouldn't expect any man to do the same.
(PS, this is my first comment on this site - I'm not the same Meg as above!)
You are right, this is a controversial article as I figured it would strike a nerve with most of the men reading, after all who wants to be viewed as a meal ticket. However, as Ive said to others you're reading way tooo deeply into the story. What I meant is what I wrote.
After receiving comments on my own site and emails about the article further discussing it Ive come to the conclusion that its easier for some men to evoke sentiments of love and communication rather than think about the very issues that drives so many divorces today. The divorce rate in this country has skyrocketed in part due to issues around money. Many arent willing to face this realization but love does NOT conquer all.
The point of my article is to encourage women to be savvy about the life partners they choose. Too many of us fall for the same ole love and communication game. Those are a given. I should have stated that. But to say that women should not focus on HOW financially savvy their partners are in favor of ONLY focusing on given characteristics like communication, chemistry etc etc is equivalent to skipping across a major highway in oncoming traffic. You're bound to get knocked on your face with the reality that you should have looked before crossing. The same applies here: women should be looking at a man in ALL areas, not just chemistry, communication and the like.
No where did I say that men are a meal ticket or that the SIZE of their bank accounts should be taken into consideration. The article simply aimed to discuss HOW these men manage their money. I am happily married to a man who shares the same sentiments and felt the same way when we got together. He wanted a woman who was financially savvy and who wouldnt spend us into the poor house. I also have a husband who is budget conscious and thinks long term when it comes to our financial goals. This was my point. My husband makes great money but that wasn't the only reason that I chose him as my life partner. His characteristics far outweigh his financially savvy but make no mistake, his level of financial interest and savvy played a HUGE role. I want no part of a man that spends recklessly because I do not plan to be broke and miserable in my old age because by choosing an irresponsible partner, we had to declare bankruptcy twice or foreclose on our home.
No, not this woman.
A financially savvy woman may not be for you because it evokes other negative feelings but it doesn't negate the fact that women are beginning to take a closer look at HOW their partners manage money. NOT how much money they make.
Having been both poor and happy with my wife ... and rich and happy with my wife, I can safely say that money actually doesn't matter in a great relationship, but the communication around it does.
"Anyhoo, just to address concerns about it seeming as though I am promoting ONLY thinking about men in terms of their wallet… that isnt the case and I made that clear, hopefully in the first few sentences. I really wanted to drive home the importance of selecting a mate with a healthy attitude towards personal finance."
However, all the work you did in the first few sentences was largely undone with your statements about stifling screams during sex with a shriveled up oil tycoon (not to mention several other head scratchers).
However, as I man I read your article and agreed whole-heartedly with it. However, I read it from the reverse point of view and placed women as the ones who must have their financial houses in order if they want any serious attention from me. Any woman I marry must pull her own weight: there will be no Drama Queen Fashionista Princesses in my life, thankyouverymuch. Looking for a Knight in Shining Armor to come sweep you off your feet, pay off all your debts, and set you up in some fancy McMansion with a Mercedes ML350 in the driveway? Keep looking sweetheart.
Maybe I can just find a shriveled up widow that survived her oil tycoon husband, that way I won't have to worry about it. Hmmm...
Similarly, he was thrilled to find out that I was maxing out my 401k at the time. He wasn't excited because of the prospective gravy train (ha!), it just was proof that I wasn't looking for someone to take care of me financially. I already had it covered.
How a person spends their money is a pretty decent gauge of their core life values, which should be in pretty close alignment for long-term happiness.
I agree that, as a single male, financial habits are extremely important in chosing a mate. I think discussing finances should be a high priority because any lives that are built without a sure foundation with not survive. This is more important to me than what color the walls should be painted, or what kind of vacation destinations are compatible, because at the end of the day, if you don't have a strong financial position/skills your just renting anyway.
That's my .02 cents!
I saw the problems a financially irresponsible relative had in all aspects of life - challenges getting a job, forget about a partner...just kind of floating around hoping to find the pot of gold under the rainbow. It is incredibly sad to see in a nice guy heading into his 40s with...zilch. And I am not talking about money here, I am talking about steady employment and a family and all that boring old stuff, this dude still lives with his parents most of the year. He is a nice person, wouldn't hurt a fly but come on...
I am a man who looks after his money, but my girlfriend spends money like water.
I own three houses (inherited two and worked for one myself) and I have got money saved away in investments.
I have two jobs, during the day I work as a cleaner and at night I drive Taxis. For cleaning I get paid $15 an hour for cleaning hotel rooms, driving Taxis I get about $120 a night. On Friday and Saturday I can get up to $200 a night. I drive four nights a week.
In an average week I get about $1200. I also get money through renting out one of my houses.
(Please note, I live in Australia. unskilled labour is much higher paid here than the USA.)
I manage to save money because I do not spend very much- I know my city very well so I know where to get free stuff and where to eat for free.
My girlfriend would not marry me simply because I do not have a "good job", even though I am financially sound.
She said that she does not want to marry a cleaner because it is not a "respectable job", and her family in Korea would be embarrassed. She does not even want to show me to her parents, she said that I would have to look for a "better job".
I have a university degree, a Bachelor of Arts in History and Sociology with second class honours, I also did a Graduate Diploma in Humanities, which involved the completion of a research thesis; therefore if I look hard enough I may be able to get a job in the public sector or something.
In all honesty, I was too lazy to look for a more professional job after finishing university; and to be honesty I still am too lazy to look for a better job. But there is no real incentive for me to do so, as I am contented with my income, as my two jobs give me more than enough to do everything I want in life.
Money is all that matters in the end of the day right? I clean toilets and hotel rooms for a living, but I have got cash and assets to live a good life.
Women that marry for money are prostitutes, high-paid prostitutes. How can they be smarter than women who have actually worked their asses off their whole lives to be rich by themselves and give living proof to other women that they do not need to live under the hegemony of a man-controlled world? They are only selling their bodies for money, most likely because they have low self-esteem. You're a whore and an embarrassment to your gender. This is the worst form of rationality I've ever seen. May God have mercy on your soul.
But commenters like you are too often committed to insulting over women because they have different views than you do. I can almost bet that you're miserable wherever you happen to be in your life. I have enough respect or myself and others not to stoop to your levels. But, it just shows how low you are in your life right now.
Your problem isnt me, and my views because I promise you, my marriage is wonderful and it's based on the sweetest love, something you can't relate to. I just happen to have a great package, a man who loves and respects me and is as financially savvy as I am, so yes, God has had mercy on my soul and blessed me with what has been the best thing to happen to me in the last 5 years. I refuse to apologize for that.
Marry someone who you are attracted to and love to be around. It's okay to expect financial integrity, you don't want to marry some happy-go-lucky financial nightmare, but beyond that people are not things you acquire. No, this advice is not any brave new world, it's just encouraging gold-digging with a new label.
You'll notice that the author realizes this on some level too, the trailer-trash seediness of it all, which is why (presumably) she doesn't state her name. When she says "Let me preface this by stating that I am not suggesting that women marry solely for money" she is saying: "women should marry primarily for money,"
Fact of the matter is, no marriage can be happy when income is in the bottom decile with 2 kids before your mid 20s, despite long work-weeks at minimum wage.
Men have every right to be just as picky as women, and a lot of them are. It isn't wrong to look for a partner who is responsible and who plans for the future. You can learn a lot about a person by looking at how they manage their money.
And finally, one must take into consideration childbirth. Women are the ones who get pregnant, not men. And it's women who were programmed to feed the children, nurture the children, and watch the children (there is a reason that only women lactate), especially in the earliest, most vulnerable stages of the child's life. Would it be right to expect a woman to have the kids, AND be the one bringing in the majority of the money while she is doing it? In this day and age, (most) men don't have to go out and risk their lives hunting massive game in order to feed their families.
You also have to understand that financial stability is not the ONLY thing these women are looking for. It's just one of many standards. I don't think it's wrong to be a little picky - it's only sensible..
If you don't mind... How much do you spend on the accountant each year? I'm just curious because we've never had one. It sounds nice to have one, though fortunately we've been able to get things under control ourselves.
Actually, I think my husband and I enjoy some of our money talk (so long as we're making progress, that is, lol). It's brought us closer together because we're talking about our common goals and working on problems together.
Knowing someone is wealthy or business savvy, or have a great talent in sports, or famous, or having any kind of high status, will not in anyway show what they are like as a person! Definitely and absolutely not!
Doctor who turns out to be a killer, a business exec who embezzels money, a celebrity who is a drug addict, a congressman who is a pedophile, a mayor who solicits call girls. The list goes on, just read the news. Guess what these people have? Money, status and power. Guess what they dont have? Character. Who suffers? Their family and society.
My advice: Choose a persons personality/character over money, talent or status. It does take time to get to know someone, but its worth it.
It is much easier for men to get money and gain status, than for them to be a good person. Rags to riches is not uncommon this days, but change in character from bad to good seldom happens. Being rich and famous, does not automatically change their personality (usually it gets worse).
Smart women marry for character. Dumb women gets fooled by Money, Fame and Power.